Wow Joen, look what happens when you apply your evil genius powers for good!!! More tequila for everyone!

Thanks for adding ANOTHER option just as I finished my list, but I'd say your idea is awesome, and not one I've seen implemented before.

I'd be more than happy to replace my fleet marks minimum with your time limit to make that the new Option #4.

So yes, with the new Option #4, a scammer would now have to be a filthy rich evil genius who targets only Stonewall and then waits six months to launch his dastardly plan to throw his money down the toilet. Sounding like we're pretty golden to me.. :-D

P.S. And to help calm down anyone who might still be concerned about security, remember, we don't need to be locked down like Fort Knox to avoid scammers, we just need to be a harder target than the other guys. If we had a mandatory minimum waiting period, there are hundreds of fleets that would be MUCH easier targets than us.

Quote by joenAtl

but tequila makes me a friendly evil genius.

Now I want tequila!

But that's a really good idea you had too ;)

ok people evil genius speaking here.

bwahahaa

what if we put a timer on membership, say 6 months of support and active membership. So if someone supports the base, embassy whatever and they actively are active then its open to buy.
Captains review @ the 6 month mark. still can buy under review before then.

I would think a scammer would not hang on the fleet and be an active participant for that long. Originally thought a year, but tequila makes me a friendly evil genius.

So we seem to have people coming up with a few different options, let me try to summarize for the discussion. Feel free to speak up for your favourite:

1. Status Quo - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
2. Increase Quotas - "Come on guys, one more ship per toon, please, we have tons of those provisions"
3. Add "sub Fleet Captains" to help manage the store - "Add a few more people who can help prevent those delays when FCs aren't online", ~2-3 times a day in my estimation.
4. Allow everyone access to the store, as long as they've contributed a minimum of x fleet credits - "Why not, it's much more efficient for everyone and no one's outlined a worst case scenario to be afraid of yet"
5. Totally open for everyone - Heck, even I'm not pushing for this one.

Note that they aren't mutually exclusive of course, could do 2 and 3 for example, or 2 and 4 if we feel 4 needs quotas.

One note, I'd really like a status quo person to tell me what we're afraid of, ideally with numbers. Once you sit down and start calculating what a thief would have to do to hurt us, it starts looking pretty crazy to me. And I personally think the current system is broke, largely because it goes against our egalitarian values as a fleet, as well as it's inefficiency, but that's just me.

Sounds like a good start to me. Now if they could only find some legal grounds to go after Fox News.

It doesn't strike me that the risk outweighs the reward here. We have always purported ourselves to be a safe place, welcoming and open to all as long as we treat each other fairly and respectfully. Yes, we have had the occasional individual or group that for one reason or another did us harm. That creates fear and fear breeds mistrust so I can understand why some people would choose a more conservative model out of habit. I can also understand why others, like Araa would feel as though their leadership viewed them-and by extension the rest of the fleet with a measure of mistrust. I don't think at all that it was intentional, it was simply based on some past experiences that engendered a modus operandi geared toward protecting the fleet's holdings. I was on the fence about this issue but given the arguments and evidence very articulately presented by both sides I do not see the harm, or rather the level of potential harm in trying the model that seems to have worked for much of the other fleets. I feel if we opened up access to the fleet store to those who meet the requirements it may boost participation in fleet projects to casual gamers or new members from other fleets who maybe find it a little inconvenient to seek out a fleet captain every time they want to access the store. I feel that it could maybe boost the feeling of incentive to have such ready access to fleet rewards.

I think that generally things are ok as they are at the moment, and if it isn't broke, then don't fix it. :-) I'm sure it's a policy that's under constant review, and a little caution doesn't hurt. Plus, people can still get whatever they want, they just have to deal with a 'shopkeeper'.

We could do with having a few more people who can promote people to the requestioning rank though, perhaps across different time zones? Then there'd be more people around to help. :-D

I think the idea of the requestioning rank being permanent after donating xxx amount to fleet projects to be an interesting idea though (and not just because I'm near the top of the chart, lol)...

Very cool! I love the artwork!!

Not only would they have to really hate us, but they'd have to be willing to spend hundreds of real world dollars in order to really hurt us.

Sure Todd, but can you identify what the harm you're worried about is? I've sketched out the scenario of the evil genius who wants to throw 1.7 fleet credits in the garbage and has been waiting to do this particularly to hurt Stonewall, ignoring all other fleets... and the worst case scenario (we lose our buff provisionings?) doesn't phase me at all, because it's EXPENSIVE to hurt us.

Can you outline what you're worried may happen? Would particularly appreciate figures if possible.

Quote by Araa

I tell ya, whenever the lowering of the gates eventually does happen, it'll be the biggest non-event there ever was. lol.

I hope you are right. It will suck if you aren't. There are definite downsides to playing it safe, some of which you have rightly highlighted. My opinion remains that the potential harm from letting down our guard outweighs those.

Oh, and Todd raises the great point that, if it's too easy buy from the fleet store, than the evil genius can just switch fleets, buyout the Innocent Patsy Fleet's store and return to his own without consequence.

However, when you realize that pretty much all fleets are ALREADY open, and that the evil genius has been able to do this with just about any single fleet for quite a while, then you realize you have to start coming up with a scenario where the evil genius has decided not to do this with anyone else, but has stored up all his resources waiting for Stonewall to lower our guard. Any potential store raiding has already happened!

So yes, we now need a VERY dedicated, evil, homophobic, Stonewall-hating genius. Besides Voleron, I don't think that's gonna be very easy to find. Well, Sinner as well perhaps. Actually, now that I think about it....

P.S. I tell ya, whenever the lowering of the gates eventually does happen, it'll be the biggest non-event there ever was. lol.

Great attitude man, totally support your right to be vigorously wrong as well. :-)

And yes Todd, this pretty much explains the difference in our way of seeing things. In your view, you (and the officers) are in the fleet house with your keys and valuable possessions, making sure all the dangerous members are locked outside. In my view, we're all living inside the same house. ;-)

So yes, given a choice of members of my family being locked outside of the house or me just letting them in, I'd totally leave the door open. With 500 people living together, someone will be around, and odds are they'll be pretty tough. :-p

P.S. LOVE the word misanthrope. Please be sure to include it again in your apology.

P.P.S. ACTUALLY Todd, in rethinking this, in your example, you hand the keys of your house (that you partly built) to the officers, on the understanding that, if you want your stuff, you can get some of it back. If they're at home. Think I'll stick with all of us living together. A bit hippie, I know.

Quote by Araa

For me it's roughly analogous to the terrorist situation. If our solution involves not trusting any members in the fleet and we constantly run around worrying about being taken advantage of (which we're reminded of every time we need to ask permission to buy something), then they've kinda won. But as I said earlier, I may be hyper sensitive to the trust issue. Feels good to get this out there though. :-)

For me, it is completely analogous to the question of whether you leave your front door unlocked at all times, so that you don't give off the impression that you distrust your neighbors nor infringe on their liberty to walk in if they like. Or do you prudently keep your stuff safe behind a secure door so that your neighbors only have access to your home whenever you choose to open said door and let them in? What about your car? Do you lock it when you park, or just leave the keys in it because people are so good and trustworthy?

Do you leave your front door unlocked when you aren't there? Say yes, and I'll concede the entire argument to you and admit that I am a cynical old misanthrope.

P.S. It doesn't bother me at all that you disagree with me on this point. Feel free to advocate for your point of view as vigorously as you please. You're dead wrong, but I'm not upset about it... this is a videogame we are talking about here, after all. B)

Quote by joenAtl

Jus thinking out load I guess, but technically someone could take out more then they put in if they use the fleet bonus right?

It doesn't have to be that complicated. Say you are in a fleet where you have contributed to your own starbase and earned a bunch of fleet credits, but the people in your fleet have bought out all the provisions in the fleet stores. So you quit that fleet, join ours, go to the base and buy up everything you can afford, quit our fleet, and go back to your old fleet with your inventory stuffed full of our provisions.

So imagine that joenAtl was this terribly evil genius that we're all so scared of. Joen has 1.7m fleet credits that Joen wants to use soley to hurt Stonewall (a VERY evil and dedicated genius), a pretty tidy sum. What amount of damage can Joen do?

1. Forget ships, fleet modules cost 5m EC and we have over 200 credits, and Joen only has a few slots. Physically impossible, no fleet ever has a problem with ship provisions. (And as Brett suggested, we should REALLY increase the quota per toon, whatever happens)

2. Ground equipment is tough to buyout as well. Joen will have to waste a TON of dil as well as fleet credits on buying tons of crap (fleet ground gear is pretty useless compared to sets anyway in general), and can STILL only make a reasonable dent in our provisions, say 80/160, and that's using ALL the credits in just this category. Joen would then have to throw out most of the stuff right after buying it (it's bound), as even the BOFFs would be full. Pretty crazy is our Joen. Must hate Stonewall a LOT to throw SO much cash/dil in the garbage for the sole purpose of reducing only one of our provisioning levels.

3. Buffs. Now this is a reasonable target, they're cheap and usable. But I don't think we even have a policy on buffs as it stands, no? In any case, they're easy to replace and I personally am prepared to walk away from these ones, don`t use them at all personally. Haven't heard any concerns about them to date....

The reason I brought this up is because our provisions continue to increase over time (like I said, our trial period is done!), so we don't really need the quotas, AND they`re incredibly hard/expensive to steal, not at all like a bank! Find a fault with the scenarios above and you'll help to convince me of the evil genius scenario.

And from a personal values level, for me it's roughly analogous to the terrorist situation. If our solution involves not trusting any members in the fleet and we constantly run around worrying about being taken advantage of (both of which we're reminded of every time we need to ask permission to buy something), then they've kinda won. But as I said earlier, I may be hyper sensitive to the trust issue. Feels good to get this out there though. :-)

P.S. Remember, a simple, lower risk solution is just make the Requisition level permanent to people that have contributed over xxx fleet credits, which is what pretty much all fleets currently do. This avoids the total fly-by-night scenario that we saw with the bank, as members will have to have shown their commitment. Most fleets only require 10k-30k fleet credits, which is accessible even to VERY casual gamers, but we can raise it if we're more concerned than they are. :-D

We have a Rift guild? Why didn't anyone tell me, I play Rift...::feels left out::

And how much did that cost you in dilithium? In items used in fleet projects, in doffs, etc...

Also, once you have emptied the fleet of all it's provisions, then what? What are you going to do with them all? You'd have had to spend an inordinate amount of real life money to have acquired enough ship slots to have emptied us out. I just think the system itself is a pretty big gateway to willy nilly purchase of items.

BTW who made the change about lockboxes in the fleet bank? It was my favorite place to pick them up for free ;)

An old girlfriend was jewish and believe it or not I went to her rabbi's wedding with her partner... its amazing that some sects are still doing this when they allow female rabbi's in others.

Jus thinking out load I guess, but technically someone could take out more then they put in if they use the fleet bonus right?

hypothetically and in no way accurate numbers:

Say they use 1 credit they used, and then got the added credit so they have 2 banked, but only one deposited to the fleet. They then take out something that costs 2 credits, then the fleet is down a credit because of the extra credit used by the bonus. (then multiply this scenario by a dozen people)

And those credit bonus's could be gotten easily off the exchange for easy EC.

I know I usually have like 20-30k in fleet extra bonus sitting on my counter, just from boxes or game bonus or something.

Again just theorizing if there is a way to take out more then put in.

Actually here are some real numbers:

My fleet lifetime credit is: 1,641,131
My Personal Fleet balance is: 1,669,460 (I have already purchased 7 MK XII ship weapons and a MK XII personal rifle, value what 140K?)
So that means right now If I go to the store and use every one of my credits the fleet would be out about 168K in credited items