Quote by Soran

In any Star Trek series, you can count a number of episodes in which crew members trust each other and security protocols are for outsiders.

Eddington. Seska. Admiral Cartwright. Valeris. Calvin Hudson. Leyton. Red Squad. T'Pel.

Yay, I love Star Trek trivia!

(Soran, I think you missed quite a few episodes there...)

Quote by Araa

Todd, you raise the important question, as did SBO and mrgig, of whether we can adequately provision a fleet of 500 members.

Well, under your suggestion, I guess we can provision a fleet of 500 people if each person contributes enough resources to provision 3 ships, 8 ship components, 8 gound items, and as many consumables as they will consume. Under any other conditions, the answer would be no.

Totally fair question, and this is where we can distinguish between quotas (i.e., how many x's you can buy) and controls (i.e., go see an FC to get access to the store). I'm against the controls, although I'd support a waiting period to reduce the chances of fraud by fly-by-night members*, but I have no problem with quotas to address exactly your concern, particularly if we loosen them slowly over time as we test the process.

Quotas without controls are called "suggestions". If you don't have controls, then it isn't a quota. By definition. Pick a different word, because at this point you and I are not talking about the same thing.

So what's a reasonable amount to ensure there's enough for everyone?

There seems to be plenty under the current system. Let's stick with that!

I'd actually prefer setting them per person rather than per toon (why give more resources to someone just cause they have 15 toons?

Because people with more toons are in a position to contribute more. I've probably put into the main starbase projects 100 prisoner and colonist doffs that my Klingon toon mailed to my Fed toon.

Reactions?

I have no opinion on what the limits should be, just as long as there are actual enforced limits.

On having a member cooldown period to avoid fraud by people joining the fleet just to shop, you and I and most of the others in this chat seem to support it, but it sounds like some of the leadership team doesn't.

I don't think that is an accurate assessment of either my position or of the officers'.

I don't think they yet understand how it can be structured to be easily managed, esp vs. the current system! It partially involves making the req. rank permanent, and if necessary, I can outline the simple process that can make it super simple to manage.

Yes, this [strike]10-page[/strike] [strike]11-page[/strike] 13-page debate certainly suggests super-simplicity...

Certainly we have no problem at all doing it in other fleets, and I don`t think SW is any less capable ;-). At the end of the day, it`s a net reduction in effort to do this vs. the status quo, guaranteed.

If the fleet officers aren't unhappy with their current level of required effort, I will restate my opinion that you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. But I do think that going from "We need egalitarianism and trust!" to "Let's make it simpler for the officers!" is a clever pivot.

Our fleet is at the maximum level of members and is staying there. Our base and embassy projects are advancing as fast as any other fleet's and faster than most. We have plenty of provisions in the store. Anyone who wants to access the store is free to do so by following a simple procedure that applies equally and fairly to every last one of us. Our store is completely secure from ne'er-do-wells like the ones who robbed our bank. Our fleet officers are not complaining about the system being too onerous or complicated for them to manage.

I fail utterly to see the problem with all this, especially since you seem to have dropped your pean to egalitarianism and trust.

I remain convinced that the current system is w.a.d. and needs no altering. I am personally quite happy with the way it works. When I wanted to buy a ship, it took me 2 minutes. When I want access to the store, I have never had trouble getting it. And when the fleet asks me to put my own resources into the provisioning projects, I am happy to do so because I know those provisions are secure and will be used and enjoyed only by my friends and fleetmates. Change makes no sense to me.

I'm participating to the debate with a constructive attitude. There are no numbers here, but working with them every day I came to believe that they make you loose the right perception of things way too often. Be cool and, please, don't tell me my phrasing's too flamboyant: you Anglo-Saxon are so touchy. :P

I've been part of SW for one year and a half, participating quite regularly to our joint efforts as a Fleet. Until now, I haven't done anything but pouring in resources for the fleet both in terms of time and raw materials for projects.

I've participated to only one meeting on-line and we talked about store-restrictions. They had to be temporary and allow us to better understand how the system works. I wasn't completely satisfied with the reasoning then, and certainly I'm not now.

I believe that a policy is also (actually I should say first and foremost) the expression of an attitude and of a weltanschauung. I don't like to be told that someone (I, for instance, or anybody else here) joining and staying in the fleet for a prolonged time could be dangerous to the others. It's arrogant and frankly quite offensive too. Keeping a long-standing fleet member in the condition of needing to ask for something that's rightfully his/her/hir does something terrible: it makes our bonds as a group weaker.

In any Star Trek series, you can count a number of episodes in which crew members trust each other and security protocols are for outsiders. Thus, I back the proposal to reform the store-restrictions to a temporal cap. I understand that it could be a new burden for those who manage the Fleet, but I don't think it would be that much worse than promoting a new member from recruit to cadet and then to member.

Quote by Keioel

Is it possible for someone who has racked up over a million fleet credits to join and drain us dry? Yes, of course it's just as possible as it never happening.

Under the current system, someone with millions of fleet credits coming in and buying up our store is not possible. That is what makes the current system, which was debated and thought-out and agreed-upon, so attractive.

What you, and others, are saying is that someone coming in and doing that after we open up the store is not likely. And I simply don't think you have any evidence to back up that position. You say it isn't likely, but you don't really know. Like I said before, you are wishing and hoping and guessing. Well, I'm not inclined to gamble based on your hopes and dreams about the goodness of humanity nor on your guesses about what people are likely to do. The bank has been robbed. And it was robbed by someone who had played with our fleet for a while and was trying to get himself made fleet captain (and had others suggesting that he should be!) so that he could rob us more completely. You saying the store won't the target of similar players be is just completely contrary to the evidence. But, there is none so blind as he who will not see...

However, no one in this thread has been arguing for wide open access to the fleet store, if you're going to argue against what people are suggesting, it would behoove you to actually counter their points instead of an argument that no one has made.

The original post in this thread, the one that got it all started, flat-out said that we should "allow anyone in the fleet to buy directly from the stores". There was nothing in the original post about waiting periods or windows or anything else. Just that we should let anyone in the fleet buy whatever they wanted because we should have "egalitarianism and trust". And that was what I was reacting to. I don't like that idea. I haven't expressed an opinion about windows or tiers or anything else because I don't really have an issue with any of that. What I took issue was was the original demand that we open up the store to free access by anyone in the fleet and just trust everyone to do be on the honor system. Presumably, that includes people who joined yesterday, because the original posted did not say it didn't.

So please reread the entire thread and note that "wide-open access" was indeed the suggestion to which I was and am responding.

Now, if everyone has, as you say, backed away from that first idea, I will declare that no one is happier to hear it than I am... although it isn't terribly egalitarian or trustful of you. But if you are saying that the idiotic "honor system/voluntary quota" plan is off the table, then I'd say my work here is done.

:cheer:

Hey, we all totally support this, just tell us where/when/how, unless I've missed something!

As an aside, for you to take or leave as you see fit, this 'bursty' approach to holdings works VERY well with pre-staging, I'm using it in another fleet and we seem to be moving faster than SW despite being significantly smaller.

Essentially, if you have everyone's attention for an hour, use them to help fill not only the starbase/embassy's CURRENT needs, but also any upcoming big special projects as well.

To be more precise, it simply means saying "Ok guys, in three days we'll have Transwarp Conduit III, which will need 3600 Energy Cells and 80 DOFFs and 750 Stabilizers (http://www.stowiki.org/List_of_starbase_projects

I'm completely open to doing anything. Haliar, If you'd like to do a map completion run pick a zone that you need work on and we can meet soon. Let me know when you are free and we can go about scheduling a date/time. I would also like to do some farming in Southsun Cove for some passion flowers and Karka drops.

Bumping up please support

I wholeheartedly agree. I'd love to participate in/help run those kinds of events. I'd also be interested in doing some map completion stuff (I didn't get a chance to participate in the last one).

Freshly refitted and under new command, the USS Sally Ride was drawn to an unsettled M-class world by a strange energy reading and discovered a crashed KDF vessel on the surface. When an away team beamed down to recover survivors, they discovered that they were being held on the planet by an ancient technological relic. The team managed to activate an interface with the relic, revealing that it was some kind of biological observation device, but can they convince it not to make them its newest specimens?

[attachment=1176]2012-11-17_00019.jpg[/attachment]

The combined KDF and Starfleet group reluctantly attempted to work together to puzzle out the device's purpose in restraining them, or some weakness that could be used to escape it. They were hampered in their efforts by the device's design, which did nothing to accommodate access or maintenance by humanoids.

After concluding that a persuasive approach should be tried before sabotage, lest the device perceive their actions as threatening, Captain Orenn resumed his one-sided communication while Counselor Kelsan attempted to telepathically analyze the relic's mechanical mind. Together they discovered an odd facet of the device's programming: it seemed almost disappointed by the results of its observations, if such a term could be applied to a centuries-old machine.

The device seemed to be programmed to observe evolution, but had become convinced the species on its planet would never evolve. This seemed to offer some motivation for detaining a more advanced species, but no real avenues of escape.

It was one of the KDF officers, a Lethean named Elivir, who finally made the connection between the relic's ancient Vulcan design influences and its frustration with its observations. During and after the schism, Vulcans and Romulans rapidly adapted to changing circumstances, becoming very different species in a very brief window of time. If the relic originated during that time, it would have had too little time to observe any real evolutionary changes, and it would have perhaps been biased to expect similarly rapid development from any species.

Orenn attempted to use biological records from the Sally Ride's databases as a bargaining chip to get off the planet, but the device seemed totally uninterested in negotiation, instead forcibly removing the information it wanted from the ship's computer. Along the way, though, it seemed to get some inkling of the prime directive; once it had processed the new data, it about-faced immediately, ordering the away teams to leave lest they interfere with the development of its planet's native species.

The crews were only too happy to get off the planet, but hardly any of the mysteries surrounding the relic have been clarified. Where did it come from? How is it so advanced? Why has it never been detected before? And what is its real connection to the Vulcan/Romulan schism?
_________________

OOC notes:
SO late. Blame Thanksgiving. :S

Speaking of which, last weekend I decided to host "downtime" instead of a traditional event. No threats, no puzzles, just a few off-duty crew members socializing in the ship's lounge. I'm really happy with the character interactions that arose out of that, so I'm going to work that sort of thing into our regular schedule. For the time being, I think it's something I'll put in between plots. If there's a high demand for it, I may try to work low-pressure social moments into the normal events as well.

Next week's event will be held at the starbase. KDF characters (including new ones!) are again welcome to join in.

I guess this explains why the channels are like ghost towns lately... Been trying to get a couple more characters into the guild for almost a week but it is like nobody is online... But that I know isn't the whole reason and some of those restrictions are pretty stupid.

Todd, you raise the important question, as did SBO and mrgig, of whether we can adequately provision a fleet of 500 members. Totally fair question, and this is where we can distinguish between quotas (i.e., how many x's you can buy) and controls (i.e., go see an FC to get access to the store). I'm against the controls, although I'd support a waiting period to reduce the chances of fraud by fly-by-night members*, but I have no problem with quotas to address exactly your concern, particularly if we loosen them slowly over time as we test the process.

So what's a reasonable amount to ensure there's enough for everyone? I'd actually prefer setting them per person rather than per toon (why give more resources to someone just cause they have 15 toons? And why prevent people from tricking out their main with all of their allocation?), but would do something like the following to start (just putting this out there):

Ships: 3 per person (i.e. 1 for 3 toons, or 3 for 1 toon)
Ship components (weapons/consoles/...): 8 per person
Ground items: 8 per person
Buffs: Your discretion, but don't go crazy

We could then loosen them further if, after three months or so, we're still doing well with our provisions.

Reactions?

* ASIDE: On having a member cooldown period to avoid fraud by people joining the fleet just to shop, you and I and most of the others in this chat seem to support it, but it sounds like some of the leadership team doesn't. I don't think they yet understand how it can be structured to be easily managed, esp vs. the current system! It partially involves making the req. rank permanent, and if necessary, I can outline the simple process that can make it super simple to manage. Certainly we have no problem at all doing it in other fleets, and I don`t think SW is any less capable ;-). At the end of the day, it`s a net reduction in effort to do this vs. the status quo, guaranteed.

Actually Keioel, your edit is quite insightful. I'd like to add to it by mentioning one of my tricks with these discussions... if you read a thread worried that "oh my god, these people are going to get angry and argumentative", then the posts actually start LOOKING angry. As Keioel mentions, they're read with a negative interpretation.

Personally, I always read these things thinking we're a bunch of cool people having a witty conversation at a cocktail party, and then the posts all start LOOKING friendlier, by giving them a positive interpretation. It's a great trick, and it means I've really enjoyed all the discussions above, and am quite surprised when someone interprets the same discussion as an argument. Give it a shot if you haven't tried it, it's like having your own personal rose-coloured glasses and makes the world MUCH happier than if you're using the dark-coloured ones.

Is it possible for someone who has racked up over a million fleet credits to join and drain us dry? Yes, of course it's just as possible as it never happening. However, no one in this thread has been arguing for wide open access to the fleet store, if you're going to argue against what people are suggesting, it would behoove you to actually counter their points instead of an argument that no one has made. Personally, I think a 3 month window would be a good compromise on security and inclusion of new members.

Edit: I'm adding a smiley face because text is rather impersonal and is usually read in the worst possible interpretation ;)

Quote by mrgig00

Let's just keep this conversation moving forward; we're all friends here.

I heartily agree ;)

If, in addition to a fleet cred/provision minimum requirement we also instituted a 3 month waiting period in which the new member would have to ask permission from the fleet leadership to access the store; would that not be an acceptable compromise for all concerned parties? It would serve to discourage any potential boogeymen circling our fleet like vultures to spend an inordinately unprofitable amount of time away from their own fleet to try and scam us.

I recommend we do a poll. We've done them in the past and it's a good way to get a general idea on where we collectively stand on these issues by voting on what each person thinks of each option presented without having to constantly debate or defend the merits of their stance.

Quote by Toddoverton

Is that enough numbers for ya?

Sorry if I offended you. You are firmly in the "Keep the limits" column. I get that. What limits do you recommend? I know there is one ship per member. What about the other items?

Let's just keep this conversation moving forward; we're all friends here. What would you say would be an acceptable quota of Fleet Credits/number of provisions each member should get to spend in a setting?

Quote by mrgig00

I didn't keep up with the fleet credit costs, but by my estimation there are only about a dozen fleet members that could "clear us out," and they'd only be able to do it once.

My concern is not about our current fleet members, but about outsiders joining the fleet just to spend their fleet credits in our store and then quitting. I am by no means a hardcore player, but I have earned 1.5 million fleet credits. Now imagine a dozen people hearing that we have a fully-stocked fleet store with no restrictions (pardon me, voluntary quotas) on purchases. Twelve people like me, that is 18,000,000 fleet credits being spent in our store by people who promptly quit and go back to their old fleets. Is that enough numbers for ya?

Now, those arguing for fewer controls can assume that 12 (or more) such people won't appear and if they do that they won't buy up the store. But let's be clear that they are indeed assuming. They are guessing and wishing and hoping. And they swear that just because people did it to our bank is no indication whatsoever that they would do it to our store. Because people are good and should be trusted.

I, for one, am not willing to make those assumptions. They are unwarranted and contrary to the evidence. And I have made substantial contributions of my own time and treasure to our fleet provisioning projects because I knew from the beginning that our officers were actively protecting those provisions and ensuring that they were not unduly at risk of abuse. If that changes, people like me will see little reason to put so much of our effort into things the fleet isn't willing to protect. If you think you can provision a fleet of 500 players without the continuing support of people like me, then by all means go ahead. But removing these protections will be a powerful disincentive for players like me to put so much into our store.

I love contributing to our fleet projects. I love working to build up resources that we can share as a community. I love what we have accomplished together with our base and our embassy and their stores of provisions. And I feel that way in large part because I know that my contributions are valued and actively protected by our fleet. My efforts are not going to waste. The people who benefit from my contributions are my friends and fleetmates, and we have a system in place that ensures that this continues to be the case. I would suggest that most other large contributors feel the same way. The current system is a wonderful incentive for players like us to put so much of our personal stuff into these shared resources. Removing that incentive would not, in the long run, be good for our fleet.

Simma down now.

*snip*

Quote by SBOSlayer

I think the logistics speak for themselves. Some members have enough Fleet Credits to diminish the store to 0 capacity. Which means the majority who are fighting for this and don't have time, much like I don't, to garner that amount of fleet credits will most likely have to wait quite a bit for replenishing.

Well, yes and no. On the leaderboard, I've got 422595 fleet credit in the Fleetbase, and 2414 fleet credit in the Embassy. This is my only fleet, and I joined before the fleet credit system began.

I've purchased:
a Fleet RSV Retro,
2 [Advanced Fleet Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]],
[Advanced Fleet Antiproton Dual Cannons Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]],
[Advanced Fleet Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]],
[Advanced Positron Deflector Array Mk XII [Inert] [CoSys] [SInt] [CMan]],
[Advanced Fleet Combat Impulse Engines Mk XII [Turn]x3 [Spd]],
[Advanced Fleet Covariant Shield Array Mk XII [Cap]x3 [Reg]],
and 3 [Advanced Fleet Antiproton Turret Mk XII [Dmg]x3 [Acc]].

7 weapons, 1 ship, and 3 Ship components. After those purchases, I'm left with only 98541 fleet credits.

That will only buy me two Fleet Consoles at the Embassy, and then leave me broke no matter how much dilithium I have; I'll have to grind a while to buy more things.

I didn't keep up with the fleet credit costs, but by my estimation there are only about a dozen fleet members that could "clear us out," and they'd only be able to do it once.

In the end, I don't know what the solution is, but I wish there were more numbers going on in this discussion.

Heh, some good stuff SBO....

Quote by SBOSlayer

I think the logistics speak for themselves. Some members have enough Fleet Credits to diminish the store to 0 capacity. Which means the majority who are fighting for this and don't have time, much like I don't, to garner that amount of fleet credits will most likely have to wait quite a bit for replenishing.

So if you feel this way SBO, then fight for quotas. Some simple guidelines, similar (but more generous), than our current ones will help to ensure that there's enough for all. And as discussed, no member will diminish the store to 0 capacity, no one needs or wants 150 ground items, and they`d run out of dil anyway. ;-)

Quote by SBOSlayer

On the flip side according to TTS and other channels, apart from 9th fleet, we are one of the only fleet in games with nearly tier 4 capability. I'm hoping tier 5 will give us the option for a purely based provisioning system.

Well, I'm not sure about 'only'. I know of 4 fed fleets (not including the 9th) and 2 kdf fleets that are already (or are almost) tier 4, which is a large % of those I'm familiar with. But what do you mean by your second sentence? That we'll only do provisions after tier 5? I totally assume that`s the case.

Quote by SBOSlayer

Finally i'm seeing a lot of other fleets don't have this limitation. I have to say this is wrong most fleets do have this in place and are going to continue to have this in place.

Fascinating. Most fleets? Really? Well, I can only go from my experience, which is that SW is the only one of the 10 (usually rather large) fleets I've checked. I haven't caught the discussion on those channels unfortunately, although I do follow them. Can you privately send me a few of the names of the ones that use that system? Would love to do some digging.

Quote by SBOSlayer

Also Araa i'm not being funny, but why are you pushing this so hard? It's a discussion and not a fight. We have to take all opinions into consideration ;)

Why on earth do people get the impression that this is fighting? :-D It's a spirited, respectful, funny debate amongst passionate people. What's not to like? And of course you should take all opinions into consideration, I've been trying to encourage all voices to contribute, the better to clarify all the arguments.

Yes, I'm passionate about this, but the policy (for me) represents a whole bunch of things I passionately don't like, inefficiency, distrust (i.e., whatever you feel, voluntary quotas alone can ensure fairness, our current permission/"keys" system on top of that inherently implies distrust), and hierarchical behaviour. The precise opposite of the way I like my organizations to function. Particularly because we're made up of passionate volunteers who want the fleet to succeed, I would much rather see what happens when we just trust our members to behave maturely! Even if it fails, I'd be happier because I'd feel the fleet would more closely reflect my values and a have a stronger belief in its members behaviour.

I realize some don`t see these problems at all, but I`m just telling you how it looks from my perspective. Ultimately we`re all fighting for the same thing, a successful, smoothly-functioning, happy fleet!

And just to reiterate, enjoy the debate, try to learn from your debators (I've already learned a few valuable things from SBO and The Evil Genius for example), practice your communication and debating skills, have fun!

Just to interject.

If we were to open up the provisioning vs the current system, wouldn't there be more gripe about the fact people can't get anything?

I think the logistics speak for themselves. Some members have enough Fleet Credits to diminish the store to 0 capacity. Which means the majority who are fighting for this and don't have time, much like I don't, to garner that amount of fleet credits will most likely have to wait quite a bit for replenishing.

That's the way i'm currently thinking of it. Currently the system isn't working we have. We take all feedback into consideration and even sometimes debate the issue until we come up with an effective resolution strategy. That has not been the case based on the membership we have.

On the flip side according to TTS and other channels, apart from 9th fleet, we are one of the only fleet in games with nearly tier 4 capability. I'm hoping tier 5 will give us the option for a purely based provisioning system.

If this is the case it will easy to make it a "free for all" as it were.

Just a note, most of the officers haven't even used the store yet to allow for the fleet to gain the apt gear. That's how much we want you to have this... and as a pvper I'm getting desperate :P We are thinking of the fleet as a whole and to this end we would like the system to be distributed fairly, so everyone gets a chance.

Trust me we'll come up with something, hopefully to suit all. On a side note as a uker, I'll try and make myself more available to get the euro provisioning out there ;)

Finally i'm seeing a lot of other fleets don't have this limitation. I have to say this is wrong most fleets do have this in place and are going to continue to have this in place. I don't know if everyone has access to TTS, Organised pvp, doff and elite channels, but this has been a hot topic for some time with most fleets saying that the restrictions have an overall beneficial effect on moral.

Also Araa i'm not being funny, but why are you pushing this so hard? It's a discussion and not a fight. We have to take all opinions into consideration ;)

It's looking really good.

Pretty sure I am going to get this when it comes out. Sim City 4 is just too outdated visually now, but it still has the depth. I hope this new version lives up to its name.